An Interview with the World's Leading Gratitude Expert Robert Emmons

Photo by Nick Fewings on Unsplash

I am super stoked about this week's Flourishing Friday! I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. Robert Emmons, the world's leading scientific expert on gratitude and a major figure in the positive psychology movement. Dr. Emmons is Professor Emeritus of Psychology at the University of California, Davis, and Founding Editor of The Journal of Positive Psychology. He's authored over 250 academic publications and numerous books, with his groundbreaking research featured in major outlets like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and the Today Show.

Dr. Emmons' extensive research and writing on gratitude and related topics relevant to individual and societal flourishing has been essential to our work at the Human Flourishing Lab. His insights provide a deeper understanding of gratitude, why it's so important for human flourishing, and how we can develop it more effectively.

Clay: What first drew you to study gratitude scientifically?

Robert:  Believe it or not it was an assignment. Literally. I was invited to a scientific conference entitled “The Classical Sources of Human Strength.” It covered such qualities as love, hope, wisdom, forgiveness, humility and self-control, and gratitude. Participants chose or were assigned one of these topics and told to report to the group what had been learned through scientific inquiry.  No one wanted gratitude! So I was told to become the expert on the scientific literature on gratitude. The problem was that there wasn’t any! In the human sciences, gratitude was the forgotten factor. So I seized this opportunity and began conducting research right away.  This was the best assignment I was ever given!

So that’s what got me in. But, what’s far more important is what keeps me in. The fact of the matter is that my life is far better than I could have ever imagined or deserved. The only logical response to that is gratefulness. Ironically, I have to remind myself to be grateful every day. Why? Because every day I forget to be. When you study a virtue like thankfulness you subject your ego to constant bruising. It’s an occupational hazard. It is one thing to know about gratitude, it is quite another to really know gratitude. I’d like to say that I always practice what I preach, but in all honesty I cannot. I’d like to say that I’m always grateful, but I’m not. I’d like to say that I always express appreciation to those who have benefitted me, but I don’t. On my bad days, I complain, I criticize, I feel entitled, I’m easily annoyed, I take things for granted, I complain about the lack of gratitude in other people. I’ve never found it easy to have a regular gratitude practice.

Clay: What is gratitude, exactly? Is it primarily a mental state, something we express through our actions, or both?

Robert:  I like this definition: Gratitude is an affirmation of the goodness in one’s life and the recognition that the sources of this goodness lie at least partially outside the self. In other words, we are grateful to external agents, not to ourselves. So, gratitude  emerges from two-stages of information processing: affirming and recognizing. Gratitude is the recognition that life owes me nothing and all the good I have is a gift. It is a response to all that has been given. It may or may not have an expressive component. I’ve been defining gratitude this way for a long time now, and it has received some traction by others who often quote this definition.

As you allude to, though, it's many things. Gratitude is a morally complex disposition, in that it is a virtue, a trait of character, and not just an attitude, an emotion, or a performative action. It entails a sense of justice (giving a person “their due”), a sense of obligation (paying back or reciprocating the goodness we have received) and a sense of duty (in that gratitude is the right thing to do, just as ingratitude is a vice and weakness of character to be avoided). Gratitude stems from the perception of goodness caused by others and inspires us to do good for others. This elevates it beyond just a feeling, though the feeling must be there as well to “kick-start” the engine of giving. We don’t usually do things without feeling like doing them.

Clay: At the Human Flourishing Lab, we promote an outward action approach to psychological health that involves encouraging people to spend less time fixated on their worries and more time engaged in actions aimed at making a positive difference in the lives of others. We believe, based on research, that this is good for their own wellbeing and also for society. How does gratitude fit into this action-oriented approach?

Robert:  Indeed it does. First off, gratitude impacts virtually every realm of functioning: Cognitive, emotional, relational, spiritual, physiological. Life is about giving, receiving, and repaying. It’s about dependency, it’s about acknowledging aid, relationships—after all, it is the relationship strengthening emotion. Gratitude drives generosity, compassion, volunteering, philanthropy—can you imagine society without gratitude? Exchanges would be based purely on contracts. Without the moral glue of gratitude society would crumble. 

We have evidence that grateful people are more generous, because they realize that they have been the beneficiary of other's benevolence and now want to reciprocate.  This is based on the moral norm of reciprocity, that states that are obligated to return good favors with other good favors.  This seems to be a vital imperative universally upon which civilizations rest.

I’ve been thinking quite a bit recently about how gratitude shapes identity. Seeing our lives as full of gifts or even our entire life as one immense gift enables us to organize our experience. Gratitude becomes an enduring life orientation. Continuity with our past helps us become more aware of how others have supported and sustained us. From this view of self, we are able to freely give back the good we have accumulated through the years. In thinking fundamentally of oneself as a recipient of gifts, gratitude confers a unique perspective on life. This identity stretches through our experiences, past, present, and future, creating a tapestry of accumulated kindnesses that form the story of who we are. Gratitude not only restores us when we are feeling depleted or defeated, it also re-stories us. Seeing ourselves as recipients of giftedness and potential givers of our own gifts to other people builds our identity—a receiver as well as a giver. We all receive, and we all give. We are takers and makers. In this sense, gratitude constitutes our existence—the very being and essence of who we are.

Clay: Why is gratitude important to human flourishing?

Robert:  How much space do I have to answer this question?😉 I have made the bold claim that gratitude is the deepest touchpoint of human existence. Let’s unpack that claim. We are born receivers, so our default state is gratitude. We arrive into the world as helpless infants, creatures of pure need with little to give, yet we are fed, we are protected, we are clothed and held and soothed, without having done anything to deserve it, and without offering anything in exchange. This experience, common to everyone who has made it past childhood, informs some of our deepest intuitions. Our lives are given us; therefore, our default state is gratitude. It is the truth of our existence, and one of the deepest aspects of our shared human experience. The economist Charles Eisenstein asks us to “Imagine walking out the door right now and finding yourself plunged into an alien world in which you were completely helpless, unable to feed or clothe yourself, unable to use your limbs, unable even to distinguish where your body ends and the world begins. Then huge beings come and hold you, feed you, take care of you, love you. Wouldn’t you feel grateful?” I suspect that if we are being honest, the answer would be an unequivocal “yes.” My colleague Mike McCullough has been mapping a geography of gratitude around the world. His research strongly supports that supposition that gratitude runs as an undercurrent throughout human experience in all places and in all times. Even better, its positive impact on human flourishing replicates across nations and cultures. It is part of who we are, part of who we have always been, and part of who we will always be. Perhaps that is why gratitude has been said to be “the universal currency that we can spend freely without fear of bankruptcy.”

Clay: In all your years of studying gratitude, what discovery surprised you most?

Robert: I would have to say that it was not a scientific finding or discovery per se. Although, I was very impressed by the early research demonstrating that sleep quality is improved through gratitude practices! To my mind, what has surprised me the most is the tremendous interest that both lay and professional audiences have shown in this research and the responses that I have received from people who have read my books or seen the science. Adult survivors of child abuse, prison inmates, teenage addicts, people with lifelong chronic depression–you name it, I’ve head from so many. Simply phenomenal. There is a magnetic, almost magical appeal to gratitude that I underestimated. It clearly speaks to a need that is deeply entrenched in the human condition—the need to give thanks. The impulse to give thanks is very natural. It says something very fundamental about us as human beings. I think that the need to understand origins is fundamentally and foundationally a spiritual quest. Gratitude directs our minds to the vast oceans of realities not visible. And gratitude connects us outward and upward.

Clay: What are some ways that people can cultivate gratitude in their daily lives?

Robert: The biggest lesson that I have learned is that self-forgetfulness promotes gratefulness. Is that counterintuitive? A focus on how we are doing in being grateful is actually counterproductive. It makes gratitude a burden. It reduces it to another item on our to-do list.  A self-improvement project.  However, gratitude is not about us. Gratitude is about focusing our attention on another—what another person has done or given to us for us what we could not do or give to ourselves. So it’s not all about us. This may be the most important lesson about trying to become more grateful—don’t focus on yourself!

I just don’t think you can get gratitude directly because in doing so, the focus is incorrectly placed. The focal point becomes trying to become more grateful, so we focus on ourself. Yet gratitude is other-focused by definition. It’s self-transcendent. It’s about what other people do for us, what they are providing for us by doing things for us we can’t give ourselves. If we take it on as a self-improvement project, we’ve got the focus on the wrong place. It becomes all about us, what can I do to become more grateful and I think that can be very counterproductive. So, any practice that amplifies in our minds the benevolence of others paves the royal road to gratefulness. That is why writing a gratitude letter to someone is so powerful. The emphasis shifts to someone who has touched your life in a meaningful and significant way.

Clay: In our research at the Human Flourishing Lab, we find that people who feel grateful for progress made by previous generations are more likely to be optimistic about future progress. This is a correlational finding, but based on your work, how might this kind of gratitude for historical progress help inspire a positive outlook about the future?

Robert: I love that finding! It’s a great illustration of what I meant when I said that gratitude is the search for the unseen behind the seen. It is especially easy to overlook those who are making our lives safer and more secure—law enforcement, health care providers, first responders, the military, air traffic controllers, etc. People doing the gritty and necessary and often thankless jobs. They are often behind the scenes. Or, as you say, those generations who came before us. When I am asked by parents how to instill a sense of thankfulness, I sometimes suggest to them construct a family tree or participate in some other genealogical activities.

I’ve often said that gratitude works because it heals, energizes, and transforms lives. In the face of demoralization, gratitude has the power to energize. In the face of brokenness, gratitude has the power to heal. In the face of despair, gratitude has the power to bring hope. I believe that gratitude is the best approach to life. When life is going well, it allows us to celebrate and magnify the goodness. When life is going badly, it provides a perspective by which we can view life in its entirety, and not be overwhelmed by temporary circumstances. And this is what grateful people do. Transforming adversity into prosperity requires that no matter what happens, existence itself is seen as a gift. To see life in this fashion requires that gratefulness be a deep and abiding aspect of a person’s character.  

 We have found that the strategy of “remembering the bad is effective.”  It goes like this: “Think of your worst moments, your sorrows, your losses, your sadness and then remember that here you are, able to remember them…you got through the worst day of your life…you got through the trauma, you got through the trial, you endured the temptation, you survived the bad relationship, you’re making your way out of the dark…remember the bad things…then look to see where you are.” When we remember how difficult life used to be and how far we have come, we set up an explicit contrast in our mind, and this contrast is fertile ground for gratefulness. 

 During the pandemic people were advised to cope by finding things to be grateful for. Good advice, but difficult to pull off. Instead, I asked people to consider “gratitude forecasting” instead. Imagine how grateful you will be when life returns to normal. Give thanks now for what you do not yet have but will. Consider simple pleasures that you are currently deprived of, and then visualize experiencing those once again. Gathering with friends, interacting with coworkers, dining out again. Imagine how grateful you WILL BE when life returns to normal. Give thanks now for what you do not yet have but will. Powerful.

Clay: What role does cultural messaging play in promoting or undermining gratitude? Would it be helpful if we had more models or expressions of gratitude in popular culture?

Robert: Potentially. But we must be careful. Messages endorsing and promoting gratitude can backfire. One of the unfortunate side effects of the global gratitude movement has been the constant pressure to find gratitude always and everywhere. The gospel of gratitude is all around us, reminding us that we should be grateful for our privileges and aspects of our lives we may ordinarily take for granted. Friends point out how much we have to be grateful for, social media posts highlight the blessed shiny lives of others, and scholars, writers, preachers and pundits promote gratitude as the key to health and wholeness and wellness and fullness.

Now big business, gratitude has become commodified and corporatized. Gratitude merch is all over the place. True believers in the sanctity and purity of gratitude lament the growing gratitude industrial complex. All of this increases the pressure to give perpetual and effusive thanks. We become preoccupied with our own level of gratitude and are constantly monitoring our grateful thoughts and feelings. Research has shown that much like trying to be happier, trying to become more grateful can backfire. Rather than being a portal to greater flourishing, the pressure to be grateful creates a wall that we crash up against. We feel like a failure if we cannot give thanks in all circumstances.

Clay: It was such an honor to interview Dr. Emmons and share his expert insights with Flourishing Friday readers. For those interested in exploring these insights further, check out his popular book, The Little Book of Gratitude: Create a Life of Happiness and Wellbeing by Giving Thanks.

Have a great weekend!

Clay